Rob interviews John Estafanous of RallyBright about building resilient teams, managing during a crisis, and the future of the office.

Rob: Hello everyone and welcome again to Zen Moment, the RevenueZen podcast. We’re doing something a little different today. This is the first of our client interviews. We’re going to be talking with John Estafanous of RallyBright. John is a longtime friend and colleague of RevenueZen. We have worked with RallyBright on their marketing, and they have worked with us on our team building and our leadership, and on generally building a more resilient organization. We’ll talk a little bit more about that in the future, but John, how’s it going?

John: Hey Rob, it’s going great! Can’t complain. It’s the end of the week, that’s always a good thing. Means we didn’t get enough done, but it also means we have a little bit of a break, so all is good in the world.

Rob: You want to tell me a little bit about yourself, about RallyBright, about the kind of work that you do, what you’re excited about at your company?

John: Absolutely. RallyBright is a team performance development platform. So essentially what we do is we help organizations build better teams, and we do that by helping managers become better leaders, ultimately build better teams, and that helps drive better business results for organizations. We tie in behavioral science with some proven professional development products, and at the end of the day our goal at RallyBright is to help managers and leaders measure, diagnose, and improve their team performance as well as their team dynamics. So there’s a lot of behavioral science incorporated as well. Because, guess what, teams are made up of people, and people behave in certain ways, and those behaviors ultimately drive how well those people work together and how well they perform together.

Rob: Absolutely. And I can say from personal experience that I know this works and it’s effective. It feels very real, accurate, and targeted, and you can see the behavioral science behind it. What’s your background, John? How did you come to RallyBright? Were you always in this business? How did you end up where you are?

John: I have not always been in the HR technology or performance or leadership development world. I kind of created this company several years ago based on needs I saw and felt personally as a global executive. So how did I get into this? Many years ago, I made the mistake of going to law school and decided I wanted nothing to do with being a lawyer about halfway through it. Throughout all of my undergraduate and law school careers I had always been a bit of a computer geek, so I was programming games in the basement of our house when I was a little kid, and throughout undergraduate and law school I was actually doing consulting work. 

So after law school I decided, hey, I’m just going to give this thing a shot. It was right before a major recession, so that was a lot of fun. And my software company turned into a marketing agency as well as a software company. We were one of the first companies to launch some web-based software applications and programs. I ran that company for six years. I’ll never forget the people that I worked with. We built an amazing team. My core team stayed with me all the way through the acquisition and after. So we sold that to a national digital marketing agency, and all of a sudden I had 45 engineers working for me around the country with an attrition rate of 37%. So that was interesting. They were like, hey John, you’re the tech guy, can you help us fix this? So I did what I thought was natural, which is I went around the country and I met all of my leaders, and I met all of my team members, and I got a feel of how they worked. I spent some time listening, did a lot of listening before I came up with a plan. I came up with a plan as to how do we fix this thing? A lot of that was around understanding each team’s unique strengths and vulnerabilities and each leader’s strengths and vulnerabilities. How do we systematize, operationalize, and ultimately scale what we did as a national practice?

I stayed at that organization for three years, and then I went to a global marketing organization where my job was to grow their digital marketing practice in the PR world from 20 million to 100 million, from 60 people to about 400 people around the world. Same types of problems, but there was never a road map to do all of that. So one of the great opportunities I had at that very first startup that I mentioned, was we worked with an embedded executive psychologist at Microsoft. She was there for over 18 years. We helped her put together a leadership review platform as well as a team review platform or diagnostics.

When I left the quote-unquote “corporate” world, I was like, I want to focus on helping people build better teams. I want to scale whatever I do with technology and democratize and socialize things like management consulting and executive leadership coaching. And I want to help people learn and grow. So I went back to my original client and then our founding partner at RallyBright and said, hey, you’ve got this interesting model. If we take it and scale it, we could really empower a lot of people to do their best as leaders and to build the best leaders and help people learn and grow, and build amazing teams, and scale with technology. And that’s what we’ve done at RallyBright. We took this core model, which has been around for over 20 years now, or almost 20 years. And we built a platform around it that is self service, self-enabling, quantifies things that normally can’t be quantified, and gives people a lens into where each team’s strengths and vulnerabilities are and the behaviors that drive those.

Rob: That’s a terrific resume background that makes a lot of sense, a real clear thruline to where you ended up. I want to ask you about RallyBright’s core offering, and I will in a minute, but I’m curious as somebody who also has a unused advanced degree…I’m wondering, you went to law school and decided it wasn’t your thing, but have you gotten value out of that education? Do you find any opportunity to apply either the work you did, the learning you did, or any of what you experienced in law school to the work that you do now?

John: Yeah, absolutely. First and foremost I wouldn’t have started my first company as soon as I did if it hadn’t been for law school. Because it was actually a Business Planning class I took in law school where I came up with the model, or the idea for my first company. Which then had a major pivot as you can see, you usually do. In terms of the law degree, to be honest I think my programming background had more of an impact on me going to law school than anything else because as you may know, back in the day at least, to get into law school, you have to take this thing called the LSAT, and a big part of that was the logic requirement. To me, it was just if…then/else programming that you learned, right?

So that helped get me into that mess. Coming out of it, and I’m being a little flippant, coming out of law school, it definitely helped. It saved me a lot of money on contracts and understanding and ways of thinking. You’re always looking at things in terms of how do you make sure that you’re putting the right guardrails into place with whatever that you’re doing, because you’ve heard the saying “Good fences make good neighbors.” A lot of it is just making sure that you are covering yourself, you are doing the right thing by your people, doing the right thing by your customers and your clients. It’s the same thing with team development, just making sure those expectations are clear and that there’s little confusion around what’s expected out of them. So that’s been helpful.

Rob: So RallyBright does a lot of things and has a lot of different offerings, services, but your core idea is this thing called resilient teams. I’ve had experience with this; I think it’s a great founding principle, ideology, but I would love to hear you describe it in your own terms and why you think it’s particularly useful and valuable.

John: Sure, absolutely. So resilient teams is the evolution of that model I had mentioned earlier. Essentially what we’re looking to do, which I think I’ve mentioned, is we’re looking to help managers become better leaders by measuring, diagnosing, and improving their team performance and dynamics through the platform. The model itself is based on a lot of principles that are coming into vogue right now. And they’re coming into the business lexicon because they’re true and because people are seeing their efficacy and because people are talking about them. So things like psychological safety and as I mentioned, clear communication lines, clear expectations, and having a common vision and purpose around what you’re doing. Aligning your values with organizational values in terms of how do you actually find that purpose and behave accordingly?

So resilient teams, just to get technical about it, is a team performance and dynamics model that measures a team across five core dimensions. Dimensions or principles or whatever you’d like to call them. The first two are what we call connection and attitude. Connection is all about psychological safety and trust. Attitude is all about your team’s shared optimism, their competitive spirit, their growth mindset. By looking at those two dimensions or principles, you can see, OK, does the team feel safe and secure with one another? This has been been backed up by research by Amy Edmonson out of Harvard. It was a cornerstone to Google’s Project Aristotle where they looked at thousands of teams and found that psychological safety was one of the key drivers for high performance teams. So we measure that through what we call the connection dimension. The shared optimism, the competitive spirit, and the growth mindset, if you’ve heard of Carole Dweck, she wrote a whole book called Mindset about how having a growth mindset and being flexible is really important. So we’re measuring that through our attitude dimension. By putting those together along with another component which I’ll talk about in a second, we’re able to get a good idea of how engaged the team is with one another. And how engaged they are with an organization. So it’s a lot more than asking a question like, “Hey, do you have a best friend at work?”; “Do you like the snacks in the lunchroom”; although none of us are really going to lunchrooms these days. But it’s a way of truly measuring, are our behaviors indicative of a strong, engaged team culture? And that’s how we look at that component within our resilient teams model.

The next three components of the model—so there are five pillars—direction, alignment, and performance. They measure how does the team drive impact for the business. So direction is all about whether or not the team has a shared purpose, a shared vision, and whether or not their behaviors back that up? So are we behaving in a way that’s in alignment with our shared vision and purpose? Are we clear on what we’re trying to achieve together? So this is a lot of what we see around looking at values and tying individual values to organization values and team values. It’s actually one of the most important, if not the most important dimension that drives performance, do we have a clear idea of what we’re trying to achieve? Seems like common sense when you say it that way, but it is legitimately the most important dimension.

The next thing we look at when we look at impact is alignment, and that is do we have an outside-in focus? One of the things that’s really interesting is, you can have great teams working together, but they tend to be isolated or working in silos. By looking at alignment, we can see, do we have a customer-first mindset, how well are we working with other teams within our organization, and is our aperture wide enough that we’re understanding what’s happening around us in terms of the evolved industry, trends that are happening outside of our organization and our team. So having that wider lens is important for teams to maintain perspective and context.

And then finally we look at performance. A lot of people are like, oh, you look at performance so you’re telling me you’re looking at my financials or you’re looking at how many sales we’re making or how many lines of code we’re shipping. And we say, no, those are important, but those are more business intelligence/CRM metrics. What we’re looking at is, in terms of performance, is the team doing what they say they’re going to do? Are they accountable and committed to one another? And do they have a bias for action to actually get stuff done?

So by looking at those five dimensions holistically, we’re able to get a really good idea of how engaged the team is and how they are impacting the business from a positive standpoint, achieving their mission as a team, which is to drive that business value.

Rob: That’s great. Like I said, I’ve seen this on the other end, and from an employee perspective, as a member of a team, your platform provides a really great breakdown and helps you see in both qualitative and quantitative terms what you’re succeeding at, where/how to improve, the path forward. This is the sort of thing that sometimes a lot of companies take for granted, but really does need to be set down and discussed, and it’s a really great way to do that.

So I’ve made it almost fifteen minutes into this podcast without mentioning the pandemic, but this is a COVID-19 moment, and so part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you—I mean I’m always interested in what you’re doing—but I’m curious what sort of trends on your end are you noticing as companies adapt to these (sorry for the cliché) but these uncertain times?

John: Yeah, I think it’s a great question, and it’s something that we’re really looking into as we’re working with customers in multiple industries and multiple geographies with multiple formats of teams. First and foremost, part of the way we architected and designed RallyBright was to be able to look at teams in all the different shapes and forms by which they are formed. So whether they’re hierarchical teams, matrix teams, early on we realized we’re working with a lot of distributed teams. We spent some time really understanding not only how organizations are structured, but also how existing platforms deliver value to those structures and where those gaps are.

Obviously what we’ve seen, and I believe the latest stat is 40% of all workers are now working remote as their standard, and in the worlds we work in, primarily enterprise technology, the startup worlds, professional services, that number is much higher. In fact, many of our customers have stated we’re not going back till at least 2021 to the office. Some have stated, we’re not going back until there’s a vaccine. So there’s a lot of uncertainty, but what we have seen is this major shift in terms of now people are remote, they’re distributed. Leaders of teams aren’t even necessarily working in the offices or in the same geographies of where their offices have been traditionally. So we’ve seen a dispersion of geography as well as that shift to home. We have people working from different geographies than they were in the past. The biggest thing we’ve seen with all of that, and where we wanted to spend our time is, how are teams performing in the pandemic with this shift to work from home, with the distribution, and not only that, the extra uncertainty and stress? And it’s been fascinating.

The first key insight we’ve found is, if we go back to the five core dimensions, I’ll just start there. With connection, which is all about that psychological safety and trust and how well teams work together, we’ve actually seen that improve fairly significantly across most of the teams that we’ve been working with throughout the pandemic. That was actually contrary to our initial hypothesis. We thought, oh my god, people are going to feel a lot more insecure, they’re going to feel a lot more reserved in terms of communicating with one another, they’re not going to be as open, they’re not going to be as honest, and it’s been the exact opposite. I attribute that to two key factors: one, everybody’s going through the same thing, so the playing field has been somewhat leveled in terms of people’s experiences. Everybody’s going through this disruption; it’s not unique to a specific group, it’s not specific to a geography, it’s literally everybody that’s had to go through this massive disruption. And the second is people are becoming more human. They’re becoming more human with one another, they’re becoming more human as leaders, they’re becoming more human as colleagues. There’s a lot more empathy, and people are opening up to one another, the people that they rely on every day.

So we’re seeing connection go up, which is really fascinating. We’re seeing that trust and safety on teams, teams as operating units, is going up. Where we’re seeing things begin to fray a little bit, a little bit on the attitude, although not too much. Because when they have those teams together and people are more engaged, there have been some fascinating statistics out there around how overall employee engagement has gone up during the pandemic…and I think a lot of that has to do with that increase in humanity. We’re seeing work become more human. We’re seeing executives become more human. We’re seeing leaders become more human. And that will drive that engagement and that optimism and that competitive spirit. And we’re all learning and growing, so we all have to have that growth mindset because things are changing.

So where we’re seeing things fray a little bit is around alignment, the biggest one, the outside-in focus of teams. If you think about it, this kind of makes sense. You’re talking to your teams a lot more, you’re more empathetic with your teams, you trust your teams, the people you work with every day. What you’re losing is some of that connective tissue between departments, between different organizations. You may be losing some contact with customers as that’s shifted. We don’t have the face to face, we don’t have the ability to actually literally go outside of our work and team environments and spend time with others and learn from others as much as we would have. We’re not going to conferences, we’re not going to client lunches, we’re not running into somebody from sales or marketing at the water cooler or in the lunchroom. We can’t walk down the hall to another office and have a conversation with somebody to get a result immediately. So that’s where we’re seeing some of the challenges arise. I think the mega trend that we’re seeing, candidly, Rob, is really around direction and values within an organization.

So when we look at this, and it’s anecdotal now, and we’re working on data to back this up, but when organizations put emphasis and have truly codified and socialized their values, and that’s become part of their DNA…the companies we’ve seen that have done this in a more deliberate and stronger fashion are actually increasing their performance throughout the pandemic.

Rob: Well this leads directly into my next question. When we were preparing for this, we were talking briefly about what you’d like to talk about, and you mentioned, specifically, values. This is interesting to me because from my perspective, a lot of corporations and businesses large and small understand that they need to have stated values, and they need to pay attention to culture and to these broader themes, but in practice they’re not always very good about implementing those. So I’m curious practically what can companies do to make those values real and lived, and what are companies that are doing a good job with this doing, from your perspective?

John: So let’s start with the second part of that question and then we’ll get to the first part. So with the second question, we have a very unique lens into how organizations’ values are actually sticking with their people because of the work that we do and because of what our software does. We are able to actually see firsthand how understood, repeated, and put into practice organizational values are, because we’re working directly with the people that they affect on a daily basis. So what are those companies doing? They have made their values part of their operating systems, so to speak, within an organization. It’s a lot more than just putting posters up on a wall. It’s literally, are we identifying (and this is something Brené Brown talks about), are there observable behaviors that are tied to our values? Are there expected, observable behaviors? Meaning, if we talk about integrity, and this is one of the most common values in almost every organization, there is something there about, we’re going to have integrity, we’re going to be honest. That’s pretty easy to observe, right? And that’s pretty easy to define: we’re not going to lie, we’re not going to cheat, we’re not going to fudge numbers, we’re not going to do any of those types of things. So the expected observable behaviors there are we’re going to be honest, we’re going to be truthful, we’re going to be transparent about certain things, we’re just not going to lie, we’re going to act with integrity.

When those behaviors are clearly defined and those are tied to the organization’s vision and purpose and the things that we talked about before, then it’s really easy to see how those permeate throughout an organization. So I think of one customer: we talk about those expected, observable behaviors, and when we talk about what their shared purpose is, it’s that they are invested in the success of others. Invested in the success of others is such a powerful statement because basically it means, our job is to make our customers better, it’s to make our employees better, it’s to make our teammates better. It is one of the principle values of the organization, and I can tell you, the way we know that they are living their values is when we talk to the team, and when I say talk to them, we measure their behaviors via software both quantitatively and qualitatively, we see those values come to fruition in the behaviors that are exemplified across the entire organization by the majority of their people. So it’s part of their DNA to say, yes, we are invested in the success of others, and that is our mission and that is our purpose. And we know that directly correlates with one of their values. So those are some of the ways.

There’s another organization we work with where one of their core values is that they are going to act with determination in terms of achieving their shared mission, right? When you look at this organization, they’re doing incredibly well—both of these organizations are doing very well with the pandemic—but when you look at that, and when you query the entire organization across a dozen teams, what is our purpose? You see that that purpose is literally the company’s mission. It ties directly with the mission statement of the company because it’s been ingrained and it’s in the behaviors that they are observing and expecting. Ultimately, we’re going to start measuring!

Rob: This is interesting to me. So a big part of what you do and a big part of what you were just talking about with values is that, at least in some way, they have to be measurable, or you have to be able to benchmark them against a certain thing. To me it seems like a big part of doing this successfully is crafting the right values, making sure that your values are achievable and also in alignment with what your company is. Just to pull an example out of a hat, I think if they’re too nebulous, like say, “Don’t be evil,” then you run into trouble, if for example, the definition of that begins to backslide. So when you are coaching or guiding companies or executives on creating or fine-tuning their values, how do you suggest that they approach this?

John: I want to be clear, we’re not a consultancy that will go in and help you craft your values, but what we will do is understand how to measure them, right? So I think it all comes down—and this is why behavioral science is so important—it all comes down to what are the expected behaviors that we want to track, to enforce, to support, and promote, all of those things? We’ve all heard the adage, “You can’t manage what you can’t measure.” As a company, we’re focused on helping managers become better leaders and provide measurement. It’s a natural extension for us to be able to say, if there are behaviors associated with your values, let’s define those, let’s look at how those align with other behaviors that we want to track and measure that drive performance. Because the next component to this is, if you don’t put weight against the behaviors that are tied to your values the same way you put weight towards the behaviors that are tied to the performance of your organization, then it’s almost impossible to give them the credibility they deserve.

So you have to measure values the same way you measure performance. That’s how you’re ultimately going to get to the clarity around what those values are and what they should be, because ultimately in order to measure something, you have to have clarity around what’s expected in relation to that. Does that answer your question?

Rob: That absolutely does answer my question.

John: Good.

Rob: So if I could pin you down just a little bit, I would love to get one of things practically, this is a challenge for leadership across the board…remotely, managing a team especially during a pandemic…I’m very lucky, I don’t have children, I have a home that I can work out of, but many of my peers and friends and coworkers do, and many of them are learning to adapt and adjust. They’re working different schedules or their managers are trying to be accommodating. Even if you don’t have hard and fast conflicts like trying to help your kids do their homework remotely, it’s still a challenge. So practically, how can managers lead effectively during this disruption?

John: There are a couple of things out there. First off, like I said, we have a level playing field now. So the first thing is just be more human. We’re all going through our own things and our own ways. I think this is happening, but you can’t emphasize it enough: just be more human and be more empathetic and try to understand what’s happening in the lives of your team members. I would say that from a practical standpoint, one of the things that we’ve recommended, and there are a couple key principles that are showing to be successful.

First and foremost, when you think about your employees, you want to have that empathy drive your perspective. We’ve actually just recently published something around how you can take a persona-based approach toward employee empathy during the pandemic. So you’re going to have multiple classes or groups of employees based on the kinds of situations they’re in. You have, we call them the empty nesters, older employees that maybe are home alone, and they get a lot of their social interaction, respect, and recognition by coming into the office. They may not be as technologically savvy as some of the others, but they’re missing that social component, that recognition. So that’s one group.

The other group is: there are people who’ve got older kids, the kids can manage on their own, they’re technologically savvy, they’ve got the things in their house, they’ve got bandwidth, all that good stuff. 

But then we get into a bunch of different groups who are struggling in different ways, whether it’s working couples with young children, whether it’s people that don’t have the infrastructure or the space, necessarily, to perform their best because of technology limitations or square footage restrictions or what have you. And then there’s the psychological component, too. You’ve got people, especially with the younger generations, they’re technologically savvy, but all of their social interaction and recognition is coming from the office, and they’ve lost that. And they’re isolated. They’re either isolated amongst others with roommates who are doing their own thing and there are challenges there, or they’re just isolated physically and not getting those social interactions. So everybody’s got their unique challenges. Be cognizant of those, look at those and be empathetic.

The other thing is we’ve seen a big shift away from—and this has been happening, but it’s more pronounced now—focus on productivity versus people’s availability per se. A lot of that is having really clearly defined expectations, which we talked about earlier, really clear goals, clear lines of communication and frequent communications as needed and as expected. But then ultimately not everybody’s going to be able to make it to every meeting. Not everybody’s going to be working 9 to 5. In fact, if we think about that group with young children in school with two working parents and their kids being remote schooled right now, maybe you’re available after the kids start their first class, but then they’re coming down for snacks every ten minutes. In fact, while we were doing this, my daughter walked into my office because something happened somewhere that required a little bit of attention!

Rob: [laughs]

John: So it’s going to be fragmented, it’s going to be different, but ultimately focus on the deliverables, make sure there are clear expectations. And once again I think the biggest thing is be human and be understanding.

Rob: I think that’s very good advice given everything that is going on. So I know this is a little unfair, but I would like to ask you to prognosticate a little bit. There’s been a lot of talk about the death of the office, about the end of in-person, especially white collar, work. I personally think this is a little bit overstated, but I’m curious what you think, what you’re seeing. The pandemic will end someday, not as soon as we would like, but maybe someday it will end, and I’m wondering what do you think? Do you think that these companies that have made the shift to more distributed remote teams are going to stick with that? Do you think people are going to rush back offices because they like that social interaction, or because there is a culture value or there is a cohesion value or there is some sort of merit or benefit to inhabiting the same space? What is your take on the future of the physical office?

John: Sure. So the skeptic in me tells me in two to three years we’re going to forget any of this happened, and we’ll be back to the way we were, but that’s the skeptic.

Rob: [laughs] The cynic in me thinks you’re probably right.

John: [laughs] Right? But the optimist in me…well, let’s start—the pragmatist, the realist in me tells me that no matter what we think, it’s going to be different and it’s going to be a hybrid environment. Prior to the pandemic, we were seeing trends where there was greater emphasis and recognition of flexibility in the workspace for multiple reasons, some of which we talked about. Generally being more flexible, maybe it be you have the option to work from home one day a week so you can avoid the commute or you can have a deep focus day or what have you. Even pre-pandemic, there were several organizations where they started with remote-first mentalities, primarily in the high tech industries. I’m thinking of companies like GitLab and companies like Buffer where they’ve been 100% remote from day one.

So the optimist in me tells me that we’re going to see the best of both worlds. And what that means is, there is value to seeing people face to face. I don’t think anybody’s ever questioned that. There’s always been value to getting on a plane and flying to your customers or meeting with your colleagues or socializing with your colleagues. There’s always value to having those face to face, human interactions. Some people work better when they work around others. Other people work better when they’re in an office with a shut door. And I think organizations are seeing both the values and the challenges that are associated with fully remote workforces, and I don’t think every organization is equipped, nor are they optimally set up to work as remote organizations. So I think we’re going to see some sort of hybrid return to work. Not return to work, return to real estate-based offices, because we’re all working. I think it’s going to save organizations money in terms of real estate, and things like the open office floor plan probably may not survive the way that they were being pushed in the past, which is not a bad thing in my opinion!

Rob: Your words to God’s ears.

John: [laughs]

Rob: I’m lucky to no longer have to work in one, but they could not end fast enough for me.

John: Yeah, so I think just being pragmatic, I don’t think that’s going to happen, but there is value to people getting together. You look at one end of the spectrum with Netflix saying, as soon as we can we’re going to get back to the office. And it’s true, you can drive more innovation and creativity, I think personally, by being together around a whiteboard having a conversation—socially distanced now, of course—but there’s also advantages to being able to expand your footprint. And I mean that not just from an office location perspective, but from a geographic perspective, from a diversity perspective, being able to pull people in at the same levels of interaction from multiple locations with multiple backgrounds, multiple geographies, multiple cultures. The friction behind that has gone down so much that I can’t think that it’s going to do anything but get better going forward.

Rob: Let’s hope so. Well, John, I don’t want to take up too much more of your time. This has been a really interesting and valuable conversation, and I really appreciate it. Is there anything else that you want to tell me or our listeners about, anything else you’re interested in or excited about, before I let you go?

John: I’m excited to see the increase in humanity. I’m excited to see that organizations are really beginning to understand more and more the importance of their values. We didn’t go too deep on topics like diversity and inclusion and how we can actually start to look at those, but I think most of what will drive our success going forward as professionals is sticking true to the values that we believe personally and how those align with our organizations. And then also being more human with one another. That’s probably the biggest message that I would want to get across. We see this, and I want to be really clear, it’s not just me applying fluff to this. We see it with the data that we look at daily. And we speak to leaders, employees, and managers, and what we find is those that are more human are weathering things a lot stronger, and their employees, their teams, and their organizations are doing better through this environment of disruption. There’s value to that.

Rob: It’s extremely rare that I get to end anything on a positive note, so thank you for that, John. I think that’s really encouraging, and I hope that you’re right. I trust the data bears it out. Thanks again for coming on and for talking with us. Maybe we’ll have you back to talk more about that diversity and inclusion aspect, to talk more about our values and that aspect of HR, where there’s always more to talk about.

John: Always more to talk about.

Rob: For now, thanks so much. Stay healthy and stay safe. To all of our listeners, this has been your Zen Moment.